Insane Clown Posse: The Idiocy Continues

/ MeltdownMessiah / Leave a comment

The following is a transcript of a conversation that my friends and I had regarding the news that Insane Clown Posse (ICP) is filing suit for the labeling of their fans (otherwise known as juggalos) as a dangerous gang by the FBI and Department of Justice. I felt that the conversation was worth sharing and that it might merit some thoughts from those few of you who happen to follow this blog. Only the first names of the parties involved will be shared, because I’m not a total asshole…and I will make attempts to correct spelling and occasional grammatical errors where I happen to notice them (in addition to removing most, if not all, instances of “lol” and emoticons, while rearranging some elements to make things a touch more linear). I’m far too lazy to properly edit the whole thing though, so you can take a flying leap if you expect that much of me. Also, as a warning, we do happen to get a little off topic at points…but I opted to retain those elements by virtue of the fact that they provide a fairly honest impression of what its like to be involved in a conversation with my friends and I.

My first thoughts upon reading the article on Al Jazeera was to be appalled, not that the classification was extant but that this insipid lawsuit was actually happening. According to the same rationale here, shouldn’t Marilyn Manson have been suing the FBI and other law enforcement agencies because of the way he was dragged into the midst of the Columbine aftermath? Goths and all sorts of associated people were being labelled as dangerous criminals by law enforcement all over the nation…because those dumb shit kids happened to listen to bands like Marilyn Manson and KMFDM (neither of which happen to be goth bands, I might add). I think ICP are just a bunch of fucking crybaby pieces of shit.

Ryan: I’m not sure what they expected. They pretty much set up all of the characteristics for juggalos to conform to. It is sorta bullshit, but I never understood what was to be gained by that culture anyway.

Daniel: Well because as much as I don’t care for Manson, he is measurable more intelligent than ICP and every juggalo combined, that is why he wouldn’t have sued.

Me: It’s calling a spade a spade…they behave like a gang, referring to one another as family even if they don’t actually know one another or if they are total pieces of shit (just because they have a certain taste and style, which is essentially no different from colors associated with one gang or another), and most of them I have known are jobless criminals and junkies anyhow. Of course they won’t get hired showing up somewhere with fucking clown makeup on (which I would not be surprised is the case where the references in this article is concerned)…I was never stupid enough to wear makeup to a job interview for a reason…because I actually wanted a job. Hell, the vast majority of juggalos that I’ve met are borderline retarded, semi-literate, and irresponsible…of course they aren’t getting jobs outside of fast food chains. There are, of course, exceptions…but of the literally hundreds of juggalos I have met…they constitute fewer than I can count on my fingers.

Ryan: It’s ironic that they blame that for not being able to get a job. Yeah, that’s why.

Me: Yeah, it couldn’t conceivably be that they are unemployable morons with shitty work history, no marketable skills, and poor attitudes…I imagine that them being juggalos was never a factor at all…and that the employers in question had literally no idea of any ICP association. I can’t say that for certain…but how fucking likely is it that the potential employer(s) refused to hire these jackasses because of anything to do with ICP rather than things that would have led them not to hire anyone else without the same associations under the same circumstances?

Daniel: Exactly, Nik. when 95 percent of your audience wouldn’t drop any IQ points from free basing bleach that is sad.

Ryan: “I wore juggalo makeup to my job interview and they didn’t hire me. Fucking FBI.”

Me: “I have a hatchet man tattoo on my cheek and this law firm won’t hire me as a secretary…this is violation of my free speech!”

Me: The ACLU should know better anyhow…bringing up the issue of businesses not hiring juggalos is as stupid as arguing about free speech where Phil Robertson was concerned. Free speech has literally no relevance in that situation…or really in the FBI labeling the fans as criminals…it isn’t a violation of first amendment rights at all.

Ryan: The FBI labeling them as criminals is a constitutional violation. Not of the first amendment, but of others with regard to due process and the like. This sort of federal profiling is bullshit, but I don’t actually believe that’s actually what’s affecting them. I just think it’s a stupid waste of time and resources to put toward treating them as a criminal enterprise as opposed to the inscrutable mob of idiots they are.

Me: Well, the article makes it pretty plain that they are trying to treat it as a first amendment violation…which should get laughed out of court. The employability part really pisses me off. I have enough sense to even take my facial jewelry out for job interviews and leave it that way until I have tested the water and determined whether it will fly. That’s just common sense…you don’t show up with an attitude and there is no reason why you would share your musical taste or group affiliations (unless relevant somehow) when interviewing. There are no reasons a potential employer would know a damn thing about ICP associations if you are applying and interviewing in a way that would actually get you a job anyhow.

Ryan: Do you think they label bronies as a gang? I mean, it’s equally unthinking, and quite a bit more creepy. But it’s culturally innocent. Of course, there aren’t nearly as many bronies as there are juggalos, but give it time. Actually, I bet there’s some membership crossover there.

Me: The elusive brugalloni…I have searched for years to discover one in its natural habitat.

Kristin: Ok I changed my mind. THIS conversation has made my night! I would contribute but enjoying the read too much. Bravo! And I know some brownies. Ugh. And one thinks he is David Tennant I think he should don the grease paint first.

Me: Your auto correct changed bronies to brownies I think…lunless you are trying to discuss a transgender pre-girl scout.

Kristin: Bronies. However, I know brownies too.

Ryan: Brownies are tasty.

Me: I have known some brownies in my day as well…though I haven’t seen any little girls wearing brownie uniforms or anything in a long time…do they even still exist?

Ryan: Girl scouts do. I still see them peddling cookies here and there. I don’t know if they still use the term “brownies” or not, though.

Kristin: Fortunately none of the brownies I knew chose to take cartoons or face paint to a sub level of thought. Go Brownies!

Me: Not that you know…

Ryan: All of the brownies I know are a few inches tall and like to think those cute little arrows will prevent me from putting them in my stew.

Me: Fucking fae bastards…flittering all about…this way and that. I can’t go ten feet without stepping on one.

Kristin: And I’m ok with that! It might be in the brugalloni handbook…

Me: Not yet it isn’t…but I will be sure to at least include a footnote before I send it off for publication.

Ryan: I’m seriously considering wearing a torn blue shirt and bringing a chainsaw and shotgun to my next job interview. Free speech, screwheads.

Me: That is a brilliant idea…and I may follow suit. I want to burn some bridges. I’ll show up with a hot pink wig (poorly placed upon my head so as to allow my real hair to protrude at various points), a glittery tube top, and pajama pants tucked into knee-high stormtrooper boots…with garish red lipstick smeared all over my face and a crack pipe tucked visibly into my waistband.

Ryan: Fuck it. I’ve changed my mind. If they set a precedent for the juggalos, it’ll be a boon to cosplayers everywhere. We’ll see Deadpool and Batman driving cabs and Sailor Moon and Darth Vader handing out Big Macs at McDonald’s. We’ll have steampunk law firms and gothic school administrations. Cats and dogs, living together. The perfect world, I say.

Me: We will become the most ridiculous culture ever imagined…and we can all be free to let our freak flags fly.

Ryan: And you’ll know a creep when you see one. He’ll wear that shit like a badge. It’ll be the 48-year-old balding wad of cellulite wearing a poorly made and very stretched Rainbow Brite costume.

Me: Fuck you, Ryan. That was my plan…I am that man.

Todd: Thank you guys, this was most entertaining! I couldn’t agree more.

Me: You’re welcome, Todd. I think we’ve been having a lot of fun with it.

Todd: Except for the Bronies part, I have a documentary on that subject saved on Netflix. Have to wait to form an opinion on them until after I watch it.

Me: I have a difficult time comprehending the bronies who are simply guys who enjoy My Little Pony…but the ones involved in the erotic aspect of bronie culture sort of creep me out.

Todd: No more creepy than making being a fan of a shitty rap duo that wears clown make up into a “lifestyle.” I also thought that when Vanilla Ice became a Juggalo that it would have killed the movement.

Me: He didn’t kill the home renovation industry…so it doesn’t surprise me.

Todd: I wonder if ICP had a “blood in, blood out” policy when he changed careers?

Me: I don’t see how they can reverse the lobotomies that are a customary ritual for becoming a juggalo…but maybe there was a “blood out” characteristic that I can’t conceive of.

Ryan: They could give him a second head, and make him president.

Me: They most certainly could not…he’s no Zaphod.

Ryan: Beeblebrox, Beeblebrox, Baby. Stop! Slartibartfasttime.

Me: That was just awful! But I quite sincerely chuckled.

Ryan: MC Slartibartfast needs to be a thing. Douglas Adams inspired raps would make me one very happy geek.

Johnny: I disagree. Although the bands that you mentioned did in fact have their name dragged through the mud. “Juggalos” are in a different category. They have actually been classified by the federal government as a national gang threat. Just like the bloods and the crips. Say what you want about their music; the federal gang classification of their fans is wrong.

Me: Regardless of how wrong it might be…it isn’t a violation of first amendment rights by any stretch of the imagination and there is no place for ICP to be involved in any manner of lawsuit.
I don’t agree with the classification per se, solely because I disagree with the language in the definition that is used to categorize a group as being a violent gang…but there are correlations that do apply when we utilize the definition of gang that is in place where the Department of Justice is concerned. The prevalence within the juggalo culture of drug use and testosterone fueled aggression does qualify it as having “in part” a purpose of criminal activity and intimidation (which is all that’s required for the criminal aspect of a gang to be applied).
Sadly, they do fall fairly well into the classification of a violent gang in more respects than they don’t. Sure, not all of them are violent or prone to criminal behavior…but the same is true about Bloods or Crips, as there are numerous members who are only affiliated out of a sense of belonging and family rather than criminal enterprise.

Ryan: Statistically, if there’s a greater incidence of criminal activity among juggalos than the population at large, which I suspect is the case because drugs, then they have a foundation for that classification. I disagree with it, but I also disagree with the War on Drugs. But none of that would change the fact, if it is the case.

Me: Besides, though the FBI didn’t officially make a classification…law enforcement agencies in numerous states including Colorado and Utah did classify goths as being the same sort of loosely organized hybrid gang that juggalos are being categorized as being by the FBI as of 2011.
Similarly, schools around the country (since Columbine) have put dress codes in place that were intended to stem the goth appearance and style since that same event.
Hell, prior to that (by a few years) I was kicked out of school for nothing more than wearing black eyeliner and lipstick and black skirts. I took my complaint to the superintendent and my concerns were summarily dismissed at that level too. Hell, Joel and I, along with other friends were temporarily monitored by local police because of that whole goth thing…and concern that it was a new sort of gang that was active in the region.

Ryan: I remember that shit. Also, this is nothing to the 90s era law enforcement overreaction to gang scare.

Me: Police (including the FBI) see a pattern within a certain subcultural group that trends towards criminal or antisocial behavior (antisocial in the sense that this behavior runs contrary to the societal status quo) combined with easily identifiable signs and outward expressions of “membership” such as the face painting, tattoos, and hatchet symbols…and they would be remiss not to pursue some manner of investigation into the situation. That is what they are supposed to be doing…anticipating potential threats in order to prevent crime…not just to clean up after it has been committed.

Ryan: 33,000. Thirty-three thousand gangs in the FBI database.

Me: 33,000…damn. The fact that it includes organized crime and motorcycle gangs really doesn’t help to make that number any easier to swallow.

Andy: I agree that other sub cultures have been drug through the mud, when shit goes down. My issue with the gang classification is that people are being targeted as gang affiliated, just for being a fan of some music others can’t stand. Discriminating against a person because their choice in music sucks is where this lies.
Dubstep, Bieber, and Miley suck as well, but we don’t do the same shit to people who like them as they do ICP. I’ve heard of instant disqualification from going to Job Corps, students being forced to leave in the middle of their education because of this affiliation. It is because of their tattoos, not because they dress like the clowns, which is what everyone believes all juggalos do at all times. Eye roll.
It’s like not hiring any black people because the blood and Crips are predominantly black. Or latino because they are surenos. Or I’m going bald, so I must be Aryan race.
If nautical stars tattoos, facial piercings, or Skinny Puppy became known gang symbols, and normal people like you, or Chandra were fired for those, never to be rehired based on those….isn’t this the same?
I recall when you fought tooth and nail, against a news job, for your right to keep your piercings. Going so far as to join the religion of body mods, Hilarious. And also, kind of the same.
Now, other hand. There is a juggalo gang. They do very bad shit, and the FBI isn’t targeting good people for liking scummy music. They are trying to eliminate a problem, and save people’s lives.
I don’t know. This is such a touchy subject.

Me: That’s the problem…ultimately…that there are groups within the juggalo culture that are organized into criminal elements. It has nothing to do with the music at all, simply the self-identification that is correlated with these criminal groups. I could have a blue bandanna on in the wrong place at the wrong time and would automatically be treated as a gang member as well (regardless of the fact that I just happen to like the color blue). That’s why I said that ICP has no place being involved in any sort of lawsuit, because this has nothing to do with first amendment rights and almost nothing to do with the music as well.
This has no more to do with ICP than those assholes in Columbine had anything to do with the music they listened to. The suit is my problem…and ICP being involved in this idiotic suit screams nothing but publicity stunt and a pathetic ploy for sympathy and relevance outside of the juggalo culture that already enjoys them.
I wasn’t upset about police following Joel, Nick, and I around (sometimes with cameras)…I thought it was funny, but not upsetting. At worst, it was a waste of police resources that could better be distributed elsewhere…but they didn’t know that…and I can’t fault them for what they had no reason to know.
I almost got fired from a job simply because a co-worker took exception to something that had nothing at all to do with my job…and it damn well upset me. But I put forth a reasonable argument against that bullshit and hoped that it would make a difference…sadly, it made only minimal difference and I was still left feeling like I had been punished. You win some and you lose some though.
Let’s say I had some manner of Nazi tattoo on my body somewhere (pick one; the SS symbol, the swastika, or the iron cross)…it would be entirely justifiable for me to be fired or denied a job even if I had no affiliation with any neo Nazi or KKK-based organizations. Personal expression is great, but there can be consequences depending on the form that expression happens to take. That is what personal liberty and freedom of speech and expression is all about…we have the right to do these things but people and organizations have the right to castigate us for them. Admittedly, I think ICP produces little more than the aural equivalent of toilet leavings…though some of the early material was at least entertainingly stupid instead of just stupid stupid as it became after a few albums had been released.
I feel the same way about Marilyn Manson…though I happen to enjoy more of that material than what ICP released.
That personal taste has very little to do with my disdain regarding this nonsense lawsuit though. I loathe these flimsy and transparent publicity stunts…getting idiots riled up in defense of the indefensibly stupid.

Ryan: It actually worries me how many people misinterpret the 1st amendment to mean their expression is immune to criticism or judgement. That’s actually the fucking opposite of what it does. It allows you to voice your bullshit specifically in order for the rest of us to rip it apart and exclude you from our activities.

Me: Exactly. I can’t comprehend how the ACLU has gotten involved in this…they, of all people, should know better.

Ryan: Every lawyer in the ACLU thinks they’re David Goldberger. One of my favorite ironies is that men like him took the “never forget” idiom to heart. He defended their march not because he agreed with them, but because he knows that it’s important for people to have the opportunity to learn about them. That way they can remember why they disagree with them. I suppose that reference is a little obscure. There’s probably Google on the device anyone’s reading this on. Google David Goldberger Skokie.

Me: It’s funny…I just started thinking about how I first heard of Insane Clown Posse, as I was about ready to fall asleep. It was while I was hanging out at The Atomic Cafe that my friend Charles introduced me to ICP when I was a teenager. I can’t hold it against him though, since he also really helped to increase my appreciation of Tom Waits as well. The good definitely outweighs the bad there.
Char was actually a pretty profound influence on me during my early and mid-teens…one of the first people that I ran into in that whole crowd that I actually looked up to. It’s funny the way nostalgia can hit someone out of seemingly nowhere.

Charles: Ha, yeah…not one of my finer moments. Actually, for what it was Riddlebox wasn’t that bad of an album. The problem was that the group and the fan base both became incrementally worse. Glad to know that my influence was at least cumulatively positive.

Me: Damn right it was, Char…no concerns there.

Bob: Inductively Coupled Plasma needs more Faygo
is something I dearly hope to see someday in a fab meeting.

Me: Good lord, Bob…if I had been drinking that would have led to a spit take.

Carl: The first amendment doesn’t protect you from the public, but it does protect you from the government, which the FBI is an agency of. In this case I think it does apply. Also we have the freedom of association and assembly, and the right to fair trial (to be considered innocent until proven guilty). I don’t think the FBI is wrong for keeping an eye on the criminal elements within the culture, but I think that painting the whole culture as a violent criminal gang is lazy police work. The closest analogy I can draw, currently, would be considering all Harley Davidson riders members of the Biker Gang because the outlaw biker gangs recruit from bikers who ride American motorcycles.
I’m on ICP’s side with this, kind of. Mostly because for the most part I see the large part (but not everyone bell curves, people, bell curves) of juggalos as developmentally disabled and mentally infirm. Put less politely, the cops are picking on the borderline retarded kids. I also think that the culture is more cult-like than gang like, but those edges are definitely blurred. From my perspective, it’s a big ridiculous rock and roll cult not unlike the deadheads (who had PLENTY of criminal elements as well) that attracts, nay, courts the left hand of western society’s bell curve.
I’ll also admit that I like ICP (and have never denied it) but I’m frequently annoyed by juggalos. The kitschy ridiculous concept and ‘lets be as gross as possible’ lyrics are fun. I also like circus/carnival paraphernalia and dead baby jokes, so my tastes lay in that gutter anyway; I don’t advocate them as a group everyone should/could appreciate.

Me: I stand by my statement that ICP doesn’t have a leg to stand on where any sort of first amendment violation is concerned…no one, not the FBI nor the DOJ is infringing in any way on their rights as “artists” or anything of the sort. The worst thing the FBI (and DOJ) is doing is to classify members of that whole juggalo collective as being potential members of a potentially violent criminal element.
I totally concur that they behave far more like a cult than a gang though…the mentality is certainly more in line with that sort of activity…which would also end up meriting the same sort of scrutiny from law enforcement agencies. And a cult that capitalizes on the disenfranchised mentally challenged elements within our society is definitely something we should watch with caution…much like Westboro Baptist. Law enforcement agencies pretty carefully monitored deadheads as well…which led to probably no small number of drug trafficking and distribution busts along with quite likely a good many prostitution and solicitation arrests. I may disagree with the laws that police would have been upholding by completing those arrests (since I am pro-legalization or decriminalization of most illicit substances as well as prostitution)…but I can’t hold that against them.

Carl: With that pro-legalize consensual entertainment stance, consider that if I lend someone an ICP CD I could, pedantically, be guilty of criminal gang recruitment charges. (Not withstanding the foreseen tongue in cheek assertion that loaning someone an ICP CD should in itself be a crime)

Ryan: I’m actually not sure what the criteria is for the FBI to designate ganghood. (Lol I just noticed this story is on CNN as I type this). But judging from the wide variety of organized criminal gangs, I imagine it’s a pretty loose classification. It has to include inner city street gangs, motorcycle gangs (while taking into account that they are nothing like they were in the 60s), organized crime syndicates, and regional delicacies.
There is one thing we can all agree on, though. Dennis Rodman is a douchebag.

AJ: I have a feeling that this song is going to hurt their case…

“Do you wear a hatchetman?
Then yo in a gang, and yo ass better be ready to do that thang.
You rep tha JRB and you will never snitch.
(JRB?) Juggalo Rydas Bitch!
Did you beat your girlfriends who dissed your boys?
Did your crew’s name originate in Illinois?
Do you cross your enemies out with a “K?”
Then yo gang related too muthafucka, like Violent J.”
…that part’s gonna hurt their testimony.

Me: Yeah, whether it was written as a joke or not…it does predate the FBI classification by quite a number of years…this is one of those things that could very well come back to bite them in the massive asses that they happen to bear.

Ryan: That’s pretty damning. I’m pretty sure it’s inadmissible under the fifth if they are facing criminal accusation, but in the process of suing over gang classification at the very least they’ll look like complete idiots.

Me: I don’t know that the fifth applies to publicly made statements…

Ryan: It does. It applies to all self-incriminating statements that aren’t made in either an interrogation setting or under oath. But it also only applies if there are real criminal allegations, I think.

Me: I’m still trying to wrap my head around what the fuck they think they’re trying to do with this lawsuit bullshit. No government agency has violated any of the rights of the individuals that are part of ICP regarding any aspect of the first amendment…nor has there apparently been any sort of interference with the production team behind or distribution of their releases. They have no place in this at all…and it genuinely isn’t a violation of the juggalo civil rights to classify them as being a potential gang threat either. The police aren’t out rounding them up or anything like they have done with actual street gang members at different points.

Johnny: Because official gang designation by the US government makes having any ICP logo, tattoo, t-shirt, etc. flying gang colors. Which by itself is probable cause to stop and frisk in many states. Easily identifiable 1st amendment violation. I like ICP. But even if I hated them I would still be on their side in this issue. Because it sets precedent. Who is to say they DON’T give Marilyn Manson or any other bands fans official gang designation if this holds up?

Ryan: I don’t know. I think there’s a divide in the determination of our rights ideally and how they work in the real world. I blame movies and tv. Using the 5th as an example, tv and movie cops are guilty of coercing self-incrimination all the fucking time. You can’t just trick someone into a recorded or broadcast confession and then expect that to stand as evidence in a courtroom. The reason we have Miranda rights at all is so that we are aware we’re being interrogated when we are. Tv gets that wrong too, lol. They can totally arrest you without reading them, they just aren’t supposed to use anything you say as evidence until you hear them.
Gang classification can be bullshit. Law enforcement will use it as probable cause for warrants and other nonsense, so juggalos themselves may be able to sue if in fact that is happening and those warrants turn up nothing incriminating. But ICP themselves aren’t being hurt at all by it. It actually conforms to the public image they themselves built.
I don’t know how it’ll go down. But fuck juggalos. The NDAA is the real threat to those rights.

Me: Who gives a shit about being stopped and frisked anyhow? If you don’t have anything illegal on your person it doesn’t do anything but take up a few minutes of your day…assuming you don’t cop a stupid anti-authority attitude and make the situation worse…which, judging from the juggalos I know, is likely to happen…but that is their own damn fault. Police have a wide variety of things that fall into the categories required to justify stopping and searching people already…who gives a shit if we add a few more. Hell, just like the TSA, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if we reach a point where the police are able to randomly select citizens to stop and search…and unless I happen to be in a hurry to get somewhere it is only a minor inconvenience to me. This is still a massive improvement over random stops, at least it is directed (and in a sensible manner), since there is a proportionately high number of juggalos who are involved in criminal activity…which was what led to the classification in the first place. Regarding wearing a specific brand or logo as identification with a gang, that has already been happening…there are places where the logos of certain sports franchises are associated with gang activity and you can be stopped and searched for that. I can’t say that I have ever heard of an instance where one of those franchises has gotten the ACLU involved because of it.
This is literally no different…the ICP logo or brand affiliation being cause for stop/search activity from the police is not even a step removed from the same thing happening because of a team logo or brand affiliation.

Ryan: I don’t want to be stopped and frisked. And I am adamantly opposed to stop-and-frisk policies the likes of which make NYC such a fucked up place right now, especially involving racial profiling. Juggalos probably shouldn’t be stopped for that reason alone. But if they are, they should sue, and for the proper search and seizure rights violations that would apply. And that’s not to say that they would be successful in that lawsuit. But it would certainly apply more closely to any real rights violations.

Me: I don’t relish the thought of being stopped and frisked for any reason…least of all a piece of clothing I happen to be wearing or a tattoo I have (we’ll ignore how fucking stupid I think it is to get a band’s logo as a tattoo, my friends know my thoughts on that already)…but I sure as shit won’t cry about it or feel litigious. It’s far too easy to argue probable cause on the part of the police, and I really couldn’t give much of a shit. If I happened to be arrested due to that stop and frisk, it would be my own fault anyhow…you know, for having been clearly guilty of commission of some sort of criminal activity. But no…of course…it would be the cop’s fault for searching me, not for me having something illegal on my person. We have almost no sense of accountability as a society…and I have already heard those arguments from I don’t even want to think of how many people…it was the cop’s fault…it was the fault of the person who called the police…it’s never their own fault for being involved in illegal activities.

Johnny: Yeah because none of us has ever had anything illegal in our pocket…I am afraid to be stopped and frisked. What team?

Me: Almost every major athletic franchise has a gang with association to their logo…the Folk Nation and Bloods are the most notable, using everything from Chicago Bulls to Oakland Raiders insignia and apparel…but even less well-known gangs like the Vice Lords and Black Disciples utilize athletic team logos as gang identification symbols. That sort of gang self-identification has been in practice for decades…and has led to individuals being stopped and searched due to falling into a specific demographic while wearing something with the brand in question. Of course I have had plenty of occasions where there was something illegal in my pocket…though I can say that it has probably been a solid decade since that was the case. But if I had gotten stopped and frisked for something and been caught, the last person I would have the right to be upset with would be the cop who was doing his/her job.

Kristin: I totally went to bed at the wrong time last night! Nikolas, you should print this and collage it or something!

And this is where we find ourselves now. I have just gone through the painfully tedious process of transcribing everything here with minor bits of editing to make it more readable. I hope that you enjoy.

A Fairytale for the New Year

/ MeltdownMessiah / Leave a comment

Once there was a lovely little girl who believed, with all her heart, she was a princess. As a ruddy faced toddler she imagined she must have been stolen away from her real parents and the kingdom that would have someday been her own.

Her life was a life of drudgery and unhappy toil in the stony fields belonging to those she was forced to call mother and father.

In those rough and mostly barren fields her life wasted away, year after year, and she gradually began to forget the musings and daydreams of her childhood as the responsibilities of being a woman took up more and more of her hollow life. Those responsibilities took on a most unpleasant character shortly after the death of the stranger she called mother, as the man she called father began to treat her as a woman in ways that she struggled every night to suffer through and each morning to forget.

Life continued in this fashion until one day the man she called father was lowered into the ground as well.

She forgot about her childish musings as life took its toll, until one day she lay dying, crippled and broken from years of painful labor. It was upon her bed, while breathing her final breaths, that she was forced to recall her childhood fantasies when she recognized a familiar twinkle shrouded in the glare within the eyes of her own children; themselves bitter and resentful, finding comfort in daydreams much like her own.

Intolerance

/ MeltdownMessiah / Leave a comment

My good friend, Carl, posed an interesting query today as to whether intolerance of bigotry and intolerance itself qualifies as just another form of intolerance that we should be working to do away with. His inquiry is based on a fairly sound substrate, that our current standards regarding moral character and tolerance might be untenable and outright unrealistic notions based on an idealistic version of society that simply cannot exist in any sort of sustained manner. I’m inclined to suspect that he is absolutely correct in thinking that a tolerant and accepting society is something that simply can’t and won’t exist (not within my lifetime, at least), but I can’t accept the hypothesis that it is hypocritical for someone to be intolerant of bigotry as simply more intolerance, leading to an increasingly intolerant environment.

Recent situations like those pertaining to Phil Robertson of Duck Dynasty fame (and I use the word fame in the most disgusted sense possible) as well as an Ohio teacher who was suspended fairly recently because of racist comments both in the classroom and on public forums tend to get people riled up and they incite a lot of anger on the part of those who happen to be on the receiving end of the bigotry being spouted off by individuals who are clearly (in my opinion) not suited to be making any sort of social or political commentary due to a level of ignorance that is beyond astounding. When punitive actions are taken we end up hearing from the supporters as well, crying out about free speech in obviously ill-informed rants fueled by a total and complete lack of comprehension regarding how freedom of speech functions and what the free market means.

I’m not the most sensitive person when it comes to making comments and jokes that could be deemed offensive by people of various races, genders, sexual orientations, and the like…I’m not wired in such a way as to really recognize that I might be out of line with something that I happen to find humorous. At least I’m aware of the fact that I can be a little insensitive…or maybe a lot insensitive…it really depends on who you ask. None of those things are meant to be spiteful or uttered with hate or disdain in mind, and I certainly don’t say things like that (I will not provide examples here because I’m actually trying to avoid being a total piece of shit by sharing racist or sexist jokes or anything along those lines, this is not the place for it) with the impression that I’m making genuine, articulate statements about a person or group of people. I’m the first person to admit that if I were met with violence or some other form of negative response it would be entirely my fault…well, mostly my fault…some people just need a broader sense of humor.

I spent a while thinking about Carl’s assertion and I am forced to disagree. I don’t think it is remotely hypocritical to be intolerant of bigotry. It’s an apples and assholes sort of situation, there’s no comparison to be made. A bigot, by definition, may be someone who is intolerant of opinions differing from their own…but in the sense that we were discussing it, it was more directly related to the intolerance of individuals based on things such as race, sexual orientation, and gender. I could care less about people who are intolerant of religious beliefs or political affiliation at present, as those aren’t the salient forms of intolerance that I’m planning on discussing herein. Where it concerns politics or religion, people are very much entitled to their own differing opinions on the matter, intolerance may be a bit too extreme, but fine…people can go right ahead and dislike others for the choices they make in life, and that is precisely the point I’m intending to make.

To hate someone for something that is outside of the scope of their control (or anyone else’s, for that matter) is the bigotry I hate, and I don’t even feel like there’s anything wrong with hating it, not in the least. No man nor woman chooses the racial characteristics they are born exhibiting, our gender is similarly out of our hands (and no amount of surgery ever really changes what’s written in our chromosomes, regardless of what it might do for our exterior appearance, at least not yet), and I am a firm believer that sexual preference is not a choice (no matter how many “reformed” homosexuals the fundamentalist sorts will parade around to reinforce their arguments to the contrary). Being intolerant of those who espouse intolerance of people based upon those things that they did not choose is a perfectly rational response. In hating people for the ignorant beliefs that they express we are displaying contempt for their choices and decisions, not for who they are by no choice of their own. That is precisely why we should hate someone; why we choose not to be friends with this person or that, because of the choices they make.

We can blame it on their environment or lack of education, their sheltered upbringing, or any number of additional factors…but those cease to hold any weight outside of childhood, when the influence from our surroundings is really the only influence we happen to experience. We are not a society of isolated pockets of humanity and we haven’t been for quite some time, this is no longer a world where information is unavailable or even particularly difficult to come by. People make choices, regardless of how they were raised or where…these are simple facts of life. Environment can be used to partially explain criminal behavior from an individual, up to and including rape or murder, but it damn well will not lead a judge or jury to set someone free. Our choices are what we should be judged for, the decisions we make in life are the only things by which we can be legitimately judged. And I will damn well judge men like Phil Robertson harshly for their brazen, willful ignorance as well as the ill-informed bigotry that they spread when they speak poorly of people because of nothing more than sexual preference and race.

These people are, of course, entitled to their own opinions, and I’m not inclined to physically harm them for expressing those ignorant opinions, but I sure as shit don’t need to respect those opinions or pretend that they are somehow valid or on equal footing with opinions to the contrary.

You can agree with me or disagree with me, and that’s great…you’re welcome to feel however you like, and so am I.

It’s Been A While: More Politics-Deal With It

/ MeltdownMessiah / Leave a comment

This is to be another political post, which makes me think that perhaps I should just get it out of my system altogether and become a politician…since I happen to be so damn opinionated on the matter and hate being an armchair political analyst. I know that plenty of you (assuming anyone actually reads these posts) have entirely different opinions from me…and that’s great, that difference of opinion is what allows for discourse to take place…without diversity of thought an opinion we have no room for meeting of the minds.

Our former mayor posted something earlier today regarding what he perceives as backwards morality from “Christians” that constitute the far right wing of the Republican Party…the invocation of Christ whenever they are rallying against issues that Jesus had no opinion on (at least nothing mentioned in the Gospels) such as gay marriage, abortion, taxes, and numerous other things while actively working to upset programs that coincide with the actual teachings of Christ (caring for the poor and the hungry, the sick and the elderly). You all know that I am not a Christian…that I’m not even remotely religious…but I do have a bit of knowledge about these things.

I initially wanted to do no more than let our former Mayor know that there are still Republicans like myself who don’t feel that these individuals speak for the party as a whole. I was going to leave it at that until someone opted to refer to Romans: Chapter 1, where there are some statements that could be interpreted as being opposed to homosexuality.

I felt it was necessary to point out that Romans was not a Gospel and did not have any statements made by Jesus attached to it. At best it was the writing of Paul the Apostle (not one of the Twelve Apostles, something that I suspect many Christians are unaware of), quite probably half a century after the death of Christ. It might also be noted that Paul was never in the presence of Christ (not being born until after Christ had died) and that his conversion came about from a vision of the risen Christ on the road to Damascus. So Paul had no firsthand experience of Christ or his teachings…in fact he actively persecuted the early Christian cult during his life up until that conversion took place; and this is the man responsible for the bulk of the non-Gospel New Testament. He was just a man, nothing more…as fallible as any other.

The individual also pointed towards 2nd Timothy: Chapter 3 and I felt compelled to point out that these verses still have nothing to do with the teachings of Christ…and are even further removed. 2 Timothy has unknown authorship but it is traditionally attributed to some random (unnamed) follower of Paul the Apostle…somewhere in the vicinity of a century after Christ’s death.

This individual then expressed that they had assumed I might believe in the divine inspiration of scripture.

I felt the need to disillusion him of that; considering that it is only in those pieces of writing that it mentioned that the scripture was divinely inspired…I question it a great deal. I question the veracity of anything that changes dramatically in meaning when translated from Hebrew to Aramaic to Greek and further. If divinely inspired, the meaning would remain constant. That is far from the case. I can write a piece of scripture today, tack on something about how all scripture is valid and inspired by god, and people are supposed to accept that? What is in the commonly used Bible today is nothing compared to what is found in the Catholic Bible, and that only consists of what a handful of humans determined would best suit their needs as scripture. Who gets to determine which scripture is valid and which is not…because neither God nor Jesus ever made any statements to that effect?

I didn’t mean to come off as being cynical there, but recognize that I really am a bit cynical when it comes to those things. I can understand how that whole statement could be considered highly cynical, and I was sorry about that. I just wanted to express my concern regarding the mindset associated with scripture being divinely inspired. Bart D. Ehrman has addressed these issues far better than I ever could, being Professor of religious studies at The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill…he has been able to go far more in depth than I am able where the veracity of Biblical scripture (and especially the New Testament) is concerned. I highly recommend anyone who has the means should take the time to procure and read some of his books on textual criticism of scripture. That is neither here nor there though.

It was after this that another individual made some comments about how there isn’t really much of an actual difference between big government Republicans and socialist Democrats as far as he was concerned, and he isn’t entirely incorrect. He commented on the fact that there is no article of the Constitution that speaks of equalizing pay or for providing healthcare or education.

To me, it has nothing to do with either Republicans or Democrats really…but I could see where he was coming from.

Those of you who know me are aware that I happen to be a small government Republican. I think we need fewer laws and interferences into the daily lives of the American people. I don’t think it is the place of government (state or national) to define marriage or anything else. We need to step back and trim the fat from our overbearing obsession with legislation.

Regarding protection of wages, healthcare, education, and similar bones of contention I had to disagree…as these are issues that directly impact the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of the very population this government was developed to protect. Those issues weren’t salient at the time this country was founded and would almost definitely have been taken into consideration by the founding fathers had that been otherwise. The US government was designed in such a way as to allow for alterations and modification with the passage of time. It has never been a static creation and wasn’t intended to be. Our government has the sole function of providing for the well being of the populace that supports it…to uphold the rights and liberties of the American population. Nowhere is it stated that we are expected to become involved in political or social reform in other nations, but that isn’t often something that we hear complaints about from the same people who are so concerned with the programs that aid the American people.

Regarding the Christian uproar from the far right wing of the Republican party as far as these issues are concerned, John Adams and George Washington were pretty clear on that very point when the Treaty of Tripoli was signed. There was no ambiguity in the wording. Those persons in the US government who are so concerned with their distorted form of Christianity and the almost rabid desire to impose it upon everyone else are suffering from delusions of what Christ taught as well as basic lack of understanding regarding the history of the United States.

That same man recognized that we are, of course, entitled to our differences of opinion and went on from there to express his concern over what he sees as an inflated Executive branch, stating, “Who needs congress when presidential decree gets the job done?”

I definitely feel that our last two presidents have set an unwelcome and disturbing precedent as far as overstepping the bounds of the office is concerned. I’m not a huge fan of our “do nothing” Congress either. It is my opinion that we need a complete overhaul of Washington, but not the variety that the Tea Party has been pushing for…the last thing we need in Washington is more people who don’t understand how the government works (or is intended to work) and who believe that Christ hated the poor and needy.

These are just my opinions of course. I am just some guy who happens to feel that some of this should be common sense.

November 2012: The Beginning of Something Special

/ MeltdownMessiah / Leave a comment

The morning begins with a mist draping the world outside just like it has for the last 70 days. It’s one of those heavy, pervasive sort of fogs that occludes everything further than half a block away. His mind automatically drifts towards numerous horror films he’s seen as he crosses the threshold from his warm living room into the chill, almost suffocating air beyond. The atmosphere is conducive to that particular variety of musing, and he finds himself catering to it quite frequently.
It is with these disjointed thoughts fluttering through his mind that he begins walking across the dead lawn towards his car parked along the curb. He is halfway across the distance when he catches a subtle movement with his peripheral vision.
He glances towards the skeletal hedge of branches that marks the property line and sees a piece of that must have blown into it with the breeze during the night.
He turns with a momentary surge of irritation from the worn footpath to the curb with the intention of pulling the garbage from the branches, there aren’t many things that annoy him more than having stray refuse blowing around and winding up in his yard. It looks so tacky.
The bag rustles a little bit more audibly as he approaches and he notices somewhere in the corner of his rational mind that there is no breeze that should be producing the apparent motion. There’s probably an animal of some kind in there, a rodent or something, he tells himself.
He decides to exhibit a bit of caution when extracting the trash.
As he reaches for it, a pair of large arthropod limbs extend from beneath the side of the bag, causing him to jump back, startled. He watches it with unwavering attention as the limbs probe around a little bit and the whole thing shifts just slightly as additional armored appendages stretch out before the trash creature scurries away across the neighbors lawn.
It is going to be one of those days, he thinks to himself as he returns to the path towards his car, his eyes scanning the visible distance in search of any other surprises that might be awaiting him.

A Little Something To Think About

/ MeltdownMessiah / Leave a comment

The current political climate is a horrifying thing for anyone who is capable of rational thought, neither of the major political parties inspire much faith or hope in the nation we live in today or for the future that expands before us.

What scares me most about the Republican Party as it exists today is the trend towards devolution that is so seemingly pervasive. The rhetoric that is spewed is something that should make us all laugh at the sheer ludicrous nature of it; and it might if it weren’t so truly terrifying, and made all the more terrifying by virtue of the fact that so many people are altogether too willing to accept it as fact instead of the theatrical nonsense that rhetoric (by nature) always is.

Beyond the rhetoric, though, is the subtext, and that is what is most mortifying. Racism, homophobia, and sexism abound in ways that should be appalling to everyone, not just those who are of the opposition. I used to be proud to say that I am a Conservative (capital letter intended), but there is nothing that I want more these days than to sever all ties with that hate and fear mongering culture that has devoured and transformed what was once the Republican Party.

I’ve seen Republicans point fingers at men like Robert Byrd and George Wallace as examples of the racism that was once associated with the Democratic Party, and they aren’t wrong in doing so. There is ample evidence of racism and sexism within the Democratic Party during the civil rights movement. They, of course, choose to ignore men like Jesse Helms who may have started out as a Democrat but was happily accepted into the Republican Party during the 1970’s, the party where he spent the majority of his political career. As appalling as I find any of those particular views, I also recognize that, at the time, they were pretty damn common. It was a different nation, and a different world, 40 years and more ago. That doesn’t make it acceptable by any stretch of the imagination, but it does make it a bit easier to understand. A few bad apples (or even a few dozen) decades ago doesn’t spoil the bunch today.

The Republican Party lost my support and my votes in any instance where it is pandering to the lowest common denominator like the tea party and fanatical religious right, and I’ve been hard pressed to discover any place where that is not the case. It’s fucked up that, as my Republican friends gleefully point out, during the civil rights movement it was the Democrats who were notably racist and sexist, but are now championing the rights of homosexuals and women…how times have changed. Both parties have changed since then, but only one of them seems to be changing in a positive manner anymore. America, as a whole, has been circling the drain for a good, long while, I have no doubt about that. But the GOP deciding to turn their back on progress and reality by stupidly picking up the banner dropped by men like Robert Byrd and George Wallace might be a sign that they will reach the drain ahead of the rest of us.

I’m not a huge fan of the Democratic Party, I disagree with a lot of the policies that are promoted by the party leadership, but at least they want people to be treated like people. There isn’t a widespread assumption within the Democratic Party that God has delineated certain people and lifestyles as being subhuman, and that alone is enough cause for me to throw my lot in with them in the coming election, and it should be enough for you too.

The only valid issue I’ve ever witnessed any of my Republican friends complaining about with respect to the Democrats was their short-sighted, knee jerk stance on gun control. It’s exceedingly rare that the gun violence which perpetuates their stance is perpetrated by legally obtained firearms, thus tighter restrictions are of little to no value. However, the insipid Second Amendment argument does not make their case at all. Seeing as how none of these mouth breathing, brainwashed jackasses are members of a “well regulated militia,” the right to bear arms does not apply to them. The wording was very clear in our Constitution, and it did not even ambiguously indicate that it was meant to be interpreted as a right for any Tom, Dick, and Harry to purchase and bear arms. What scares me, and makes me desire stricter laws where firearms are concerned, are these religious nut, tea party idiots having guns. I wouldn’t place a firearm in the hands of a severely mentally challenged child, and the same basic reasoning applies here.

A good friend of mine optimistically believes that all of this appalling shit (from racism to fanatical Christianity) will be ground under the feet of reason and science within the next 50 years. “Don’t hold your breath there,” is what I have to say in response. He has far more faith in human nature than I do. You can force feed facts and reality down people’s throats and it doesn’t hold a candle to feeling like they are special and that every action that they commit, no matter how heinous, is ultimately forgiven by the only judge that matters even if no other human being would ever provide said forgiveness.

The reality that we are all mortal, insignificant creatures who will be utterly scoured from the face of the universe in another couple of billion years when the atmosphere and everything else is burned away simply lacks the appeal of being eternally loved, special little beings for whom the whole universe was assembled. There’s simply no way to compete with that. We’re arrogant little fuckers, human beings, and when it comes to a choice between being special or being little more than a dust mote, most of us are going to choose the former.

I made my choice.

What Is Evil?

/ MeltdownMessiah / 4 Comments

My mother asked me to do her a favor on behalf of one of her students by answering some questions regarding the topic of “Evil.”
The assignment was to define and explore an abstract concept, and evil was the subject that the student was assigned or chose for himself. I was more than happy to offer my assistance, but I found that the discussion merited more detail than was possible within the confines of the brief questionnaire.
This seems like a suitable place for me to discuss the subject.
The questionnaire begins with a quote from Joseph Conrad, “The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary; men alone are quite capable of every wickedness.” That is a sentiment with which I wholly agree. I would add one caveat; that the belief in a supernatural origin of either good or evil most certainly does provide adequate impetus to perpetrate even greater wickedness than we, as humans, might otherwise muster. We regularly and repeatedly utilize those supernatural forces as justification for the actions we intend to take or rationalization for those we already have. Rest assured, there is no supernatural origin for those evils that we commit, even when on behalf of a supernatural being, it’s all us.
I am next asked what thing or things I consider evil and I find that far more difficult to answer. There are numerous things that I think of as being evil, but that is little more than my own opinion and I recognize that I suffer from numerous cultural and personal biases. I think that that hate crimes and bigotry are evil, I think that willfully taking advantage of others and needlessly hurting others is evil as well. By all rights, I consider most of the same things to be evil that others would, such as rape, child abuse, and murder; but there are numerous things that I most assuredly do not find evil, homosexuality, drug and alcohol use (with some degree of moderation), and belief in science and a scientific understanding of the universe around us.
Aristotle said, “Evil draws men together.” That is absolutely accurate. External evils are frequently required to bring disparate groups of people together (at least until that evil is neutralized), a remnant of in-group/out-group aspects of our primitive, tribal origins rooted in kin selection. Fear and conflict can make for some strange bedfellows.
The questionnaire includes one of my favorite sentiments expressed by Nietzsche, “He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.” I am asked if it is true that one can become the very evil that they fight to rid the world of, and I think that it happens all the time. Regimes are toppled in order to install new regimes of equal or greater toxicity. Revolutions are fought against kingdoms and empires only to build new ones that are no better than what came before. There is a passage in Revelations which asks a question that is quite similar to what the syphilitic said, “Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” It was recognized then that an equal or greater beast could be needed in order to combat the one that was being worshipped by the imaginary lost souls of John’s revelation.
I am asked if there are any people that I consider evil and there are. The question is unfair though, because there are always going to be people that I or anyone else would consider evil, but that doesn’t make them evil in an objective sense. It is easy to look back on men like Hitler and Stalin and write them off as being evil, but they probably weren’t born that way and they most certainly didn’t consider themselves to be evil nor did a number of the people who willingly and joyously followed them in their endeavours. There are people today that I think are evil, all around the world; and there are those like Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson as well as countless other ignorant and hate mongering folks right here in America…no need to look far afield.
Mae West apparently once stated, “Between two evils, I always pick the one I’ve never tried before.” As entertaining as that answer might be, I can’t go along with it. In circumstances like that I always go with the evil I feel I best understand, the lesser of two evils isn’t always the least destructive but is often the one that I feel would be easiest to subdue. I prefer the least damaging of two evils, but that isn’t always a known quantity, so I am forced to opt for the one I comprehend with greater clarity. It’s hardly optimum, but life rarely coincides with our level of comfort.
I do not consider some imaginary devil to be the root or source of evil, nor do I feel that money or commerce are the root of modern evils. To discover the root of evil one needs look no further than their own preconceptions and instances of willful ignorance. Substituting our own subjective version of reality for what is real, insisting that others believe what we believe (or live in such a way that it would be impossible to discern any disparity in those respective beliefs), and pigheadedly refusing to modify our beliefs and biases when there is ample cause to do so…those are the evils that propagate in our world today and always have.
In life we are all forced to make unsteady compromises with evil; to speak or act in ways that are damaging to our integrity and to work with people or organizations that are guilty of numerous things that we consider to be evil. There is no avoiding those compromises, no matter how steadfast and pure we might try to be.
I am asked if I laugh at the inconveniences or misfortunes of others in response to a quote from Will Rogers, “Everything is funny as long as it is happening to someone else.” Of course I do, we all do. Our culture, especially here in America, is dedicated to guilty pleasures. We make celebrities of people we know, deep down, are inferior to us for the sake of feeling superior to someone. We watch the mighty stumble and fall and we smile because we see that our icons are as prone to mistakes and failure as we are. I try to avoid those aspects of our society, but I am a product of my culture as well. I don’t derive much real pleasure from the pain of others though, unless I am the one inflicting that pain upon them…a sort of righteous indignation fueled vindictiveness seethes below the surface within me just like everyone else.
I am asked if I consider myself evil, and of course I don’t. No one actually considers themselves to be evil, even when they are acting in a way that would be categorically defined as evil by the whole population. This isn’t The Lord of the Rings and there are no definitively good or evil people out there. What I do at times might be considered evil by another, but might (to me) be done with the greater good in mind…at least for myself and/or those I love and care for. We lie to avoid hurting the feelings of others or to avoid uncomfortable conflicts, we become physically aggressive to defend others, and we do so many other things on a regular basis that we ourselves consider to be evil when we see them done by others. We are, all of us, evil…if we define being evil by doing evil things. But I don’t believe that evil actions make a good person evil…they simply make them human, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Daily interview no.506 with writer Nikolas P Robinson

/ MeltdownMessiah / 1 Comment

Another interview with yours truly has been hosted/posted through another WordPress page. Check it out and take the time to check out other interviews and elements of the page.

Daily interview no.506 with writer Nikolas P Robinson.

Not So Much a Religious Discussion as a Monologue This Time.

/ MeltdownMessiah / 4 Comments

I ask my friend how he can look at extremists and see them as being representative of all of Islam when he can overlook the rapid, violently insane voices within Christianity as being far from indicative of what Christianity is and what it stands for.

He responds by spitting out the generic, “Because Christianity is rooted in love and Islam is rooted in death.”

These discussions have been going on for far too long, and with no resolution, I think. Finally, it’s time to stop pussyfooting around the real issue. “Christianity, throughout history,” I begin, “is responsible for more death than Islam could hope to become responsible for even with another dozen 9/11 type attacks. There is no more or less promotion of violence or love in either of the religious texts that you refer to.”

Not that I expect that to get through to him, similar arguments have just slid right off of him like his religious convictions and ignorance regarding his own faith are Teflon coated.

Weary with expecting better of him, I express what I suspect is really the substrate behind all of his rabid anti-Islam, anti-Hebrew, and anti-science rhetoric, “The fact of the matter is that you’re simply a narrow minded, uninformed bigot who simply accepts what some equally uninformed bigot claims about a religion that isn’t your own.”

I continue, “Rooted in love or not, your own faith is responsible for thousands of deaths during the Spanish Inquisition, hundreds more in Christian on Christian violence in Ireland, thousands more during the various Crusades, hundreds more during the witch trials, and tens to hundreds of thousands more during the imperial expansion into central/south America, Africa, Asia, and the rest of the world…all for the glory of your God…to spread his holy word at the tip of sword and sting of bullets.

“Islam has never even come close to those numbers…and never will.”

Turning my eye to the current American military action in the Middle East, I go on, “And there are still people being killed, by Christians, in the middle east for no better reason than that the people there don’t want to bow down and pray to the God that you do.” Admittedly, that isn’t the root cause for our involvement there, but there is no question that it is a motivating factor for a good number of the violent acts that we have witnessed.

Before he replies with some ignorant statement about how we are simply defending ourselves from Islamic aggression, I follow my previous comment with, “You’d fight with no less single minded determination than they are against us if roles were reversed.”

Once more, I opt to go after the source behind all of the things that he plasters online and argues against, “You’re a hypocrite and a bigot…you can distort it and twist it around all that you like…but anyone with open eyes and a trace of sense would be as aware of that fact as I am…and you aren’t blind or stupid enough to be ignorant to that reality yourself. Somewhere inside, beneath the layers of self-delusion and brainwashing, you know better.”

Choosing to address the way that everything is distorted to fulfill his own worldview I continue by saying, “Christians commit murder on a daily basis here in America…against other Christians, against Muslims, against Jews, against every different sort…the only reason it doesn’t tabulate the way you twist things around is because we don’t call it, “Christian violence.” It’s only because we brand any violence performed by a practitioner of Islam as “Islamic violence” that you even have news articles to share and targets for your finger pointing.

“Hell, that’s just common sense…to anyone. If we go through news articles and check the religious backgrounds of the murderers and rapists in American prisons, you’d have far, far greater incident rates of Christian violence than Islamic violence to read about.”

Momentum built up, I go on, “And hate speech like yours just spurs it on. You condemn Muslims for waving signs that Christians wave around on a regular basis…while protesting the funerals of military personnel…men who sacrificed themselves for this nation in a way that none of those jackasses with picket signs would ever dare to do.”

Thinking back on how this man used to be a friend of mine, I find myself both frustrated and disappointed, “Your religion of “love” produces and promotes no less hate than Islam. So give it a fucking rest already…you’re not that stupid. No matter how brainwashed and deluded you might be, you simply can’t actually be that stupid.”

I decide to wrap it up, receiving no response or inarticulate defense from him; I feel that maybe I have said enough. I don’t suspect that it will get through to him, but I hope that maybe some of it might. It is with that in mind that I conclude, “I consider what you believe to be insipid, primitive tripe…but I give you more benefit of the doubt than you give to people who believe something quite similar to what you believe.”

 

Here We Go Again! Another Semi-Religious Discussion Transpires

/ MeltdownMessiah / 3 Comments

It happens again, my “friend” from the earlier religious discussions lets loose with something that I found impossible not to address. In this case, he posted the statement, “If a single living cell was found on a distant planet, scientists would exclaim that we have found life elsewhere in the universe. So why is a single living cell found in the womb of a pregnant woman not considered life?” I’m loath to even refer to that as a specious contention.

Upon seeing this, I reply by saying, “That’s a pretty god awful loose correlation to draw. No one disputes that bacteria are life, but we kill them wholesale when we’re feeling ill. I love your capacity for oversimplification of things in such a way. Now, if we found a cell on another planet and exclaimed that it was “human life” you would have a leg to stand on with this sort of nonsense.”

He accuses me of sticking up for the murder of a child in the womb and tells me that I am weak, further he states that I am “a loose correlation of what strength should mean.” He proclaims himself a voice for the voiceless and protection for those who cannot protect themselves.  He follows that by saying, “If you were to stand for human life then you would not be full of nonsense you would be full of truth. A baby is not bacteria but bacteria is life makes no sense.”

I respond with, “No…It isn’t murder, first of all. Let’s say that, yes, you’re correct and a single cell produced from intercourse is a human life…and imbued with a soul. If that were true, then identical twins share one soul…because that process doesn’t begin until well after germination (and you claim life begins). Conversely, we have chimera…which is far more common than you probably suspect…when two cells are germinated but one absorbs the other during the process. In those cases, is the surviving organism a cannibal? Are they guilty of murder, since they did (by every standard that you uphold) take a human life? Or, since some of the genetic material of the other twin remains, do we have one person with two separate souls? After all, where in the human form is the soul located? Which piece of the body contains the tether to the soul? Because maybe my kidney has one soul, and the rest of me another? I’m not being flippant either, I really want you to share with me the great wisdom that you have regarding what a soul is, and when exactly it supposedly becomes a part of me or you or anyone else.”

A mutual friend of ours gets involved in the conversation by telling our friend that ‘life’ is a loaded term, that sperm and egg are individually both considered alive yet we don’t grant them personhood and we kill or allow them to die all the time.

To which our friend replies by saying, “a sperm and egg together make life!”

I say, “Actually, my friend, the sperm and egg are alive in and of themselves…prior to conception.”

This mutual friend responds likewise, by saying, “Yes but separately they are still alive and yet not a person, neither is a zygote or embryo a person.”

Our friend responds by admitting that life exists without fertilization, following that with, “but yet bacteria is a baby, genius. Wish I would have thought of that myself!”

Frustrated, I reply, “You did! You’re the one who posted that nonsense about finding a cell on another planet and equating it to human life.

“You are exhibiting the very definition of circular logic. You don’t even pay attention to what you profess as truth…”

He ignores what I said and tells me to explain the human eye to the “enth degree” and then claims that I can’t, because no one can. (Misspelling is his)

To which, I say, “Yes we can…there is no irreducible complexity argument. There are varying stages of eye from single cells on an organism that are photosensitive all the way to eyes that are more complex than our own.”

He replies by stating that this means nothing and demands that I explain the human eye.

I decide that I will do my best to explain it in such a way as to get through to him, “Everyone can explain the eye…you start with an organism that happens to have a cell that is slightly more photosensitive than the surrounding cells…it is capable of evading a predatory organism or an obstacle…and is able to breed more successfully (and more frequently) than an organism without said cell…the cells breed true and the next generation has said “eye” as well. Down the road we have a descendant with a cluster of said cells…and they are better able to survive than their kin…they breed that trait on…and so on…that is how evolution works, my friend…it’s actually quite simple.

“The trait that improves survival is the trait that is most frequently bred into the next generation…and so on…mutations occur over time…most of them harmful, some of them beneficial…

“That still happens today. It’s not really so difficult.”

I finalize with, “Hell, my focus in school was physics and chemistry…but I know enough about biology to comprehend all of that.”

He follows that by claiming that I am, “circular speaking nonsense, “ and that he finds me hilarious.

I don’t know how to respond to that but to say,  “There is no circular logic there. You do understand what circular logic is, right?

“That wasn’t nonsense at all…there are presently organisms with essentially every stage of eye development from the most rudimentary to our own and beyond.”

Our mutual friend states, “Saying no one can explain the eye is just silly. How many PhDs in biology or genetics do you know? How many scientific papers have you read on the topic?”

He goes on to say, “Take a 5 minute break from scouring the Internet for anti-Obama propaganda and pictures of dead babies and learn something.” And he takes that time to share a brief video from Richard Dawkins: http://youtu.be/mb9_x1wgm7E

I thank him for sharing that, stating that I had actually forgotten that Dawkins had gone into that.

I continue by saying, “I just don’t understand why our friend seems to think that understanding and accepting science is any sort of negative thing. If anything, I would suspect that God would want humans to explore and admire the wonder of the natural world and the universe…and the best way to do that is to strive to understand it better and better.”

The mutual friend provides a possible explanation by saying, “Look at the stars…Goddidit. Look at the ocean….Goddidit. Look at the extreme variety of life….Goddidit. There is no creativity in religion. Only blind acceptance, which is why the Republican Party has no problem lying constantly to their own constituents. They know they have already been brainwashed and well-trained by their religious handlers to accept whatever is put in front of them without question.”

I follow that with, “Hell, I used to be primarily conservative…but this pandering and bowing to the religious right is precisely what made me distance myself from the Republican Party. I don’t have a problem with people practicing whatever damn religion they choose…but when they decide that it’s their place to force other people to live as if they believed the same things…that’s where I take exception. Abortion being legal would never impose abortion onto those who wanted to carry a child…homosexual marriage being legal would never force a man to marry a man or a woman to marry a woman. It’s funny that there are religious people who would call me arrogant for being an atheist…but I’m not the one parading around under the mistaken assumption that the whole universe exists just for me and that my choice of lifestyle should be imposed upon everyone else. I don’t think that they understand what “arrogant” means.”

Our friend responds by questioning how we two douches think he doesn’t like science. He goes on to say that he loves science. He continues by saying, “What I don’t love is people who think it answers everything science is merely a way to try to understand things that are far beyond us. So you posted some dude explaining the human eye. He still didn’t explain the human eye to the enth degree it is humanly impossible to do. It is for understanding things that is it. Arrogance is thinking you can fully explain something with science and math for that matter. You can’t even explain it fully with math you just cant not yet anyway. Take 5min and LEARN something!!!”

I decide that the conversation has probably gone about as far as it can go and I finalize by saying, “No, my friend, maybe he didn’t explain it to the nth degree to your liking…but if he had, you wouldn’t have followed a good portion of it anyhow, not when you instantly begin by claiming (incorrectly, I might add) that no one can. It is explained, and thousands of times over, in numerous college level biology textbooks, classrooms, and elsewhere. The workings of the human eye are well understood by numerous medical practitioners, biologists, neurologists, and others…and most of those people also understand how it developed by stages. There’s nothing magical about the human eye. You tossed out the old irreducible complexity argument without bothering to check your facts and learn that it had been more than dismissed a good, long time ago. You call it arrogant to believe that science can fully explain something, when science does a better job of explaining anything than your Bible ever has. For one second, think about the Bible (a book supposedly crafted by God, a being of infinite wisdom). In the Bible there is no information even alluded to that is beyond the superstition of a bunch of primitive agrarian people. There’s even an inaccurate calculation of pi to be found within the Bible with respect to the Temple of Solomon, even though Greek mathematicians of 250BC (and earlier) had already calculated Pi with greater accuracy. Babylonians and Egyptians had just as good of calculations of pi as early as 2,000BC as you find within the Bible. If it was actually the book of God, you would think that maybe God could do better math than the primitives who were making the same calculations a thousand years before. There is no information, no wisdom, no science mentioned in the Bible that was even advanced for the people of the Hebrew culture of the time. Science does explain things, more things every day…whereas the source of your wisdom explains pretty much nothing unless you look at it as a cultural relic that tells us a bit about one particular primitive group at the time. You can’t claim to love science but then dismiss all of it that doesn’t fit into your argument. Science and scientists do understand the human eye, how it came about, how it works, and can (and do) explain it on a regular basis (in classrooms every semester).”